Blown Outboard! CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

[JKTrevecca]

Wide Open Throttle one second, dead the next after a rapid steady decline in RPMS. I can't tell if my issue is the result of oil/fuel starve or overheat but after getting home, I confirmed 120 PSI bottom cyl, 110 Middle cyl, and 30 top cyl. I took off the head and here is what I found. Does this look like an overheat situation to you guys (Paging TK Walker.... Paging TK Walker...) or an oil starvation situation? Trying to decide whether to rebuild or get a reman powerhead. I'm not afraid to rebuild it myself I just don't know if it will be worth my time and effort and money or if I can get it done in less than a week compared to a reman powerhead off ebay. Any thoughts? The model # is 90ETLJ. The overheat alarm was disconnected a couple years ago because it was going off all the time as a false alarm. STUPID STUPID STUPID.

It did, after sitting in the water for a little while, start back up but ran TERRIBLY. I used the trolling motor to get home and barely had enough battery.

It does look to me like the cyl isn't scored so much as the piston melted and welded itself to the cyl wall. It looks like metal on top of the cyl wall vs. a groove into the cyl material itself.

What all would be involved in this? Would I rebuild just the top hole or all 3? (PAGING TK WALKER) A reman powerhead on ebay is 1k - 1.3k based on a quick 30 second search. I haven't dug in any deeper yet.

Somebody tell me what to do!!!! (TK WALKER) Please!!!! I am determined to have this fixed before the end of the day Saturday 4/16. I have a 3 day fishing trip planned beginning Sunday. Any and all advice is welcomed. Thank You! Pix attached.

[JKTrevecca]

pix

[TNBronzeback]

Man that sucks! hate that for ya. Glad you were able to get it back to the dock though.

[tkwalker]

Jk, Your diagnosis is pretty much right on ... Questions: (1) What do the other Cyl's look like?? (2) What is included in the Re-manufactured Power Head ... If it is everything and all you have to do is add the fuel system and starter, etc. then The new power head would be the way to go ... This way you have new pistons, rings, etc. also does this include New gaskets, (Base, Intake, etc.)

You are looking at a lot of work with little time to repair you PH. You will have to re sleeve or bore, New piston and rings (over size if you bore) Complete gasket set (Not cheap)..

Since there was no signs of any damage to the other cyl's and pistons (assuming) I don't think overheating would be the problem .. Need to check the top cyl. fuel system and make sure the injector and lines has no restrictions. Possible starvation and leaned out. Another possibility is that it broke a ring ... Let me talk to some people tomorrow and I will get back with you... But a new power head seems the way to go... <'TK><

PS. I don't have my ID number book in front of me ... I am assuming that it is Fuel Injected.

[notorious]

Oil starvation by some account, manufactured power head is the way to go. As TK mentioned the gaskets are premium, replace the oil level indicator/switch in the oil tank to stop the false alarm.

*While your at it...call Hydro-Tec and add the tuner exhaust, Hi-Po head, check/block and rebuild the reed block and rebuild/re-jet the carbs (I believe all 90 and below are carburated) to account for the new fuel requirements. All that if you would like to add about 10/15 HP.

When I built my last Hi-Po motor it was a Yami 75hp tuned to 90hp+ and I could easily out run aluminum rigs with 115hp...sure wish I had that motor back.

[JKTrevecca]

Jk, Your diagnosis is pretty much right on ... Questions: (1) What do the other Cyl's look like?? (2) What is included in the Re-manufactured Power Head ... If it is everything and all you have to do is add the fuel system and starter, etc. then The new power head would be the way to go ... This way you have new pistons, rings, etc. also does this include New gaskets, (Base, Intake, etc.)

You are looking at a lot of work with little time to repair you PH. You will have to re sleeve or bore, New piston and rings (over size if you bore) Complete gasket set (Not cheap)..

Since there was no signs of any damage to the other cyl's and pistons (assuming) I don't think overheating would be the problem .. Need to check the top cyl. fuel system and make sure the injector and lines has no restrictions. Possible starvation and leaned out. Another possibility is that it broke a ring ... Let me talk to some people tomorrow and I will get back with you... But a new power head seems the way to go... <'TK><

PS. I don't have my ID number book in front of me ... I am assuming that it is Fuel Injected.

I Thank you for the quick replies! This is a 1986 90 hp yamaha carburetor motor TK. I don't see any damage to the middle or bottom cyls but I will finish the teardown today for more info. It looks like I could get a gasket set for about 100$ or a rebuild kit with persons and gaskets for about $450 or if I wanted to gamble I could get the gasket kit one piston and rings for about 225. Here are the two powerheads from ebay. One is reman the other is used. I'm not really excited about either but bolting one on would sure be nice.

Btw... the top cylinder walls are dry compared to the bottom two still wet with fuel and oil. I agree it looks like oil fuel starve but when I removed the cowl she was pretty warm to the touch up top by the stat hooks housing. However... Pete stream was as solid as ever even when just cranking it with the starter.

If I decide to rebuild mine do you guys know of a machine shop that could do the machine work quickly? I could get the parts to someone this afternoon or tomorrow. Could anyone get them back to me in a day or two? Also... how much should I expect for the machine work bill?

Thanks again. I apologize yet again for hijacking the fishing forum. Feels free to move 've this thread if needed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-75-85-90-hp-Outboard-Motor-Powerhead-1990-1996-Remanufactured-Rebuilt-/111963655836?hash=item1a118dce9c:g:LiQAAOSwI-BWQRGM&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Yamaha-90-Hp-2-Stroke-3-Cylinder-Outboard-Motor-Powerhead-Freshwater-MN-/162022421922?hash=item25b949f5a2:g:lhgAAOSwBnVW-tzd&vxp=mtr



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[jaybird]

Dude....Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you with it.

[notorious]

Just a note...chances are your main and rod bearings are trashed as well. I suggest you get a re-man power head and go from there. Resizing the crank will require a significant amount of time, money and scheduling in a local machine shop if they will do it.

What oil do you use???

*Only recommended machine shops in 100 miles: http://huntsvilleengines.com/
"Eddies" if he is still in business in Springfield, Tn. if he will accept the work (race engine shop)

[tkwalker]

Just a note...chances are your main and rod bearings are trashed as well. I suggest you get a re-man power head and go from there. Resizing the crank will require a significant amount of time, money and scheduling in a local machine shop if they will do it.

What oil do you use???

*Only recommended machine shops in 100 miles: http://huntsvilleengines.com/
"Eddies" if he is still in business in Springfield, Tn. if he will accept the work (race engine shop)

JK, Notorious and I concur. You would be money ahead for a reman. PH. I don't think you have the time to collect the upgrade parts that Notorious mentioned but it would be sweet!

Note: Yamaha really likes their stuff $$ if you can get a good reman PH for the money you mentioned that sounds cheap. Good Luck ... <'TK><:)

[JKTrevecca]

TK - Do you see anything in these photos that would scare you out of re-building this? Clearly the # 1 CYL and Piston are toast. Do you see anything in the crank and crank bearing pix that concern you?

https://goo.gl/photos/FCtvwgrWMd3SmqDF8

[tkwalker]

:)TK - Do you see anything in these photos that would scare you out of re-building this? Clearly the # 1 CYL and Piston are toast. Do you see anything in the crank and crank bearing pix that concern you?

https://goo.gl/photos/FCtvwgrWMd3SmqDF8

JK, It is hard for me to trouble shoot or make a diagnosis/Analysis by looking at pic's... Folks call me all the time and want me to trouble shoot over the phone ... For me it it is like drinking a Heineken, I have to hold it feel it, smell it and put it against my cheek...

What does the color of the #1 crank journal look like is it discolored (Black ?) since your pic's aren't ID'ed it is hard to determine ... I take it you are contemplating rebuilding ... I think you are capable, but you won't meet your dead line ... <'TK><:)

[pitbull]

What oil do you use? And does it mix or do you premix? Looks like that hole went lean. You may still find pics of mine that blew a hole the size of a 1/2 dollar in the #2 piston, so I feel your pain.... Good luck and hope you get it done in time.

[JKTrevecca]

I bought a used powerhead that will arrive today. I still plan to re-build mine but this will get me on the water this weekend (I HOPE!) without rushing through the re-build and regretting it. I'll sell one of the two after I rebuild mine.

After taking my motor to a few "experts" the consensus is the failure was not due to oil but due to a lean condition in the top cyl causing detonation/pre-ignition and internal overheat. No signs of water pump or cooling system failure.

I'm going to start running high octane fuel and non-Wal-Mart oil for cheap insurance.

[SAMBOLIE]

I bought a used powerhead that will arrive today. I still plan to re-build mine but this will get me on the water this weekend (I HOPE!) without rushing through the re-build and regretting it. I'll sell one of the two after I rebuild mine.

After taking my motor to a few "experts" the consensus is the failure was not due to oil but due to a lean condition in the top cyl causing detonation/pre-ignition and internal overheat. No signs of water pump or cooling system failure.

I'm going to start running high octane fuel and non-Wal-Mart oil for cheap insurance.

I am certainly no mechanic, however, if a lack of fuel/oil mixture in the cylinder caused the problem the brand of oil would not matter.

[fisher01]

I'm wondering what caused the lean condition in that cylinder only?

[pitbull]

"I am certainly no mechanic, however, if a lack of fuel/oil mixture in the cylinder caused the problem the brand of oil would not matter."



If you're not a mechanic then how would you know the type of oil wouldn't matter?

Funny story, I argued with a police officer for over an hour one afternoon about oil, he had just stopped where I was parked and asked had I done any good, which went on into a conversation about boat motors at some point. The argument started when I asked what oil he used in his (much bragged about) Allison with a 200 merc, to which he happily bragged he uses the $12 a gallon blue bottle stuff at walmart and that I was a fool to pay the $30 a gallon for the stuff I use.... Well, I ran into that same guy a few weeks ago, him saying just ordered a new power head I couldn't help but ask why? Clotted up blue bottle oil in the carbs leaned out 2 cylinders, one of which looked similar to mine in the picture he showed me.... He has now seen the light... I'm not saying it will happen every time, but just like with anything else, sometimes you get exactly what you pay for.

[JKTrevecca]

I'm wondering what caused the lean condition in that cylinder only?

Me Too! I cleaned the carbs last night as I've been told it's possible apiece of dirt blocked the high speed jet which makes me nervous it could/will happen again! I'm going to add an additional in-line fuel filter when I put it back together.

[fisher01]

Yep, I was thinking that maybe one of the jets got clogged. Good idea with the in-line filter.

[SAMBOLIE]

"I am certainly no mechanic, however, if a lack of fuel/oil mixture in the cylinder caused the problem the brand of oil would not matter."



If you're not a mechanic then how would you know the type of oil wouldn't matter?

Funny story, I argued with a police officer for over an hour one afternoon about oil, he had just stopped where I was parked and asked had I done any good, which went on into a conversation about boat motors at some point. The argument started when I asked what oil he used in his (much bragged about) Allison with a 200 merc, to which he happily bragged he uses the $12 a gallon blue bottle stuff at walmart and that I was a fool to pay the $30 a gallon for the stuff I use.... Well, I ran into that same guy a few weeks ago, him saying just ordered a new power head I couldn't help but ask why? Clotted up blue bottle oil in the carbs leaned out 2 cylinders, one of which looked similar to mine in the picture he showed me.... He has now seen the light... I'm not saying it will happen every time, but just like with anything else, sometimes you get exactly what you pay for.


I suppose you now know why I am not a mechanic.:)

Once again I will show my ignorance against your superior knowledge. I have never seen outboard motor oil clot as you described. Sounds more like trash got in the fuel since it did not clot in the other cylinders as well.

[JKTrevecca]

Used outboard is here. Carbs are cleaned. New base gasket is here. Base is cleaned and ready for install. I have to work 1/2 day this morning but I'm pumped to get this thing going again this afternoon! Keeping my fingers and legs crossed that this used powerhead isn't a hunk of junk. It certainly looks clean and I can tell it's never been split apart.

[pitbull]

I suppose you now know why I am not a mechanic.:)

Once again I will show my ignorance against your superior knowledge. I have never seen outboard motor oil clot as you described. Sounds more like trash got in the fuel since it did not clot in the other cylinders as well.


I always ask the oil question, not that in his case I thought it was the culprit either really. Most of the time cheap oil carbons up in the ring lands and causes the ring to catch in one of the port windows, which breaks it and then the caca makes contact with the oscillating wind maker as the French say.... I generally ask the oil question to gauge the person, 90% of the cheap oil guys you can't tell them anything about anything, so there isn't much point in trying to help at all.... Sorry if I had a rude rebuttal to your reply, The real point is hopefully JK gets his boat going in time, I've been there and it sucks...

[JKTrevecca]

Back in business! Buttoned up the install Thursday a including a water pump assy with housing and cup. Started it first thing this morning in a trashcan full of water and it idled great. Borrowed a timing light and set the timing to factory specs. Then off to the lake. That's when it got weird. She shot out of the hole great but fell on her face after about 10 seconds. Troubleshooting all day and finally at 11:30 I took the factory canister fuel filter apart and sure enough... I had put the cartridge in upside down blocking the flow of fuel. Flipped it over and we're ready to go. My brother in law will be leaving Missouri in the morning and will be glad to hear that he won't need to drag his boat the whole way here. I'll be taking it easy more often than not moving forward. I am running 93 octane with yamalube oil and Lucas additive. 3/4 throttle or less. I don't have thousand dollar bills just laying around for this crap to happen again.

Can't wait to fish! I can smell it!

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[tkwalker]

JK, Glad everything worked out for you ... <'TK><:)

[SAMBOLIE]

JK, you dah man. Glad that you are up and running again.

[SAMBOLIE]

I always ask the oil question, not that in his case I thought it was the culprit either really. Most of the time cheap oil carbons up in the ring lands and causes the ring to catch in one of the port windows, which breaks it and then the caca makes contact with the oscillating wind maker as the French say.... I generally ask the oil question to gauge the person, 90% of the cheap oil guys you can't tell them anything about anything, so there isn't much point in trying to help at all.... Sorry if I had a rude rebuttal to your reply, The real point is hopefully JK gets his boat going in time, I've been there and it sucks...

You are a rookie at being rude. Just look at some of Merv, Juice or Jimmy's responses. :)
JK's has some talent. He is up and running.

[agelesssone]

You are a rookie at being rude. Just look at some of Merv, Juice or Jimmy's responses. :)
JK's has some talent. He is up and running.

Being rude us an art. Me, Juice, and Jimmy are just masters of our craft!

[XxthejuicexX]

Being rude us an art. Me, Juice, and Jimmy are just masters of our craft!



I've not had a single reply in this board and I get drug in by Merv and Sambolie! For what it's worth I run the extended life yellow jug of oil In my motor. Never had a problem. I run cheap ethanol gas and cheap oil. I guess my boats like me, a cheap ass! Good work with the motor by the way.

[pitbull]

I can assure you I play at a level in the top ranked pro leagues... But, it always winds up with me getting banned from the forum, which are trophies I have more of than I care to mention... I've just found if it's a forum I like the content of and maybe occasionally have something to offer to, I'm reluctant to suit up and play ball, sometimes I don't know when to quit.

[pitbull]

I've not had a single reply in this board and I get drug in by Merv and Sambolie! For what it's worth I run the extended life yellow jug of oil In my motor. Never had a problem. I run cheap ethanol gas and cheap oil. I guess my boats like me, a cheap ass! Good work with the motor by the way.


What I consider cheap is the $12 a gallon blue jug special at Walmart, Pennzoil makes a pretty decent oil.

[TNBronzeback]

So joking aside.....does anybody here do all the "recommended" engine treatments like sea foam or injector cleaner, ect every fill up? I know if you run ethenol gas you should add a treatment to preserve the gaskets, ect but what about the laundry list of other stuff available to prevent build-ups, deposits, ect?

[XxthejuicexX]

So joking aside.....does anybody here do all the "recommended" engine treatments like sea foam or injector cleaner, ect every fill up? I know if you run ethenol gas you should add a treatment to preserve the gaskets, ect but what about the laundry list of other stuff available to prevent build-ups, deposits, ect?



http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160419/18d8c45876e28f9604a535a7412f17d0.jpg

[XxthejuicexX]

All my friends I fish with mix like 3 different additives into their fuel..... My boat has ran on the cheapo gas since the early 2000's


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[XxthejuicexX]

What I consider cheap is the $12 a gallon blue jug special at Walmart, Pennzoil makes a pretty decent oil.



I've been happy with the pennzoil high Milage stuff. I've run the quick silver In it too but it's been a long time ago.

[TNBronzeback]

well the reason i bring that up is you always see all the commercials about this additive and that treatment. which i know is alot of marketing. but i also wondering if all that stuff is actually needed as often as they recommend to prevent issues. im no engine guy by no means so i dont have a clue.
i have my yamaha book to go by and thats about it. i need to change the oil in it this summer so im going to have to look up what kind they recommend to begin with.
i dont mind spending $6-$8 for a fuel additive to keep everything clean and in tip top shape but is it truly needed everytime i fill up or on like a monthly basis or every 3 tanks, ect. i guess those are rhetorical questions, but as a consumer ya cant help but get a little curious about all that stuff and if it actually is needed/actually works how it says it does ya know since a brand new motor could be $9-$20k+ depending on what ya want.

[notorious]

I put SeaFoam in every engine I own diesel, gasoline, or two stroke, never had a fuel related problem. I do use YamaLube in every two cycle engine also. I also use it (SeaFoam) once or so a year to clean the cylinder(s) and the intake manifold. It makes a great fogging oil/spray for long term storage additionally.

[pitbull]

I've tried everything under the sun to see if theres any real difference as far as ethanol treatments, on my 200 looper it just doesn't seem to care at all really... I will say this though, it's an 88 model engine and it used to sneeze at idle, I was told to spray Deep Creep made by Seafoam in all 6 carbs, open the throttle plates and hose it full, repeat over a few days until the whole can was in there, give it few days to soak at the fire it up... I can say I should've taken video of the cloud of smoke this thing bellowed out! But having run it in the same tank more than a dozen times I was used to it clouding up the water, but this looked like a poop trough in some 3rd world country.... Once the smoke cleared and after my amazement at the gunk the motor crapped out this thing idles like an injected motor now, really smooth for an old looper.

[notorious]

Once the smoke cleared and after my amazement at the gunk the motor crapped out this thing idles like an injected motor now, really smooth for an old looper.

Right on brother!

SeaFoam simply works better than any product I have ever seen or used for the 40 years of mechanic work I have done...period.